Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Jun 15, 2010, 05:54 PM // 17:54

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Originally Posted by Raccoon

No, what I'm saying is that with warriors also using adrenaline, most W/P builds outclass what a paragon can run because the warriors are gaining adrenaline too, using the para chants and doing massive damage at the same time. The issue comes down to what makes a Paragon so special that anyone would play it over a warrior?

Because lets see you actually spam 10/15 enegy shouts/chants as a warrior while keeping up your energy.

Repeating this, but the main problem with Paragons is that they are the latest professions to the game along with dervish, and have highly conditional, or otherwise unwanted skills. Being that the class itself has a lot LESS skills than other professions, their skills must be more general and usable in nature to actually match other classes

Dervishes do this a lot better than paragons, even though they are outclassed by Warriors and Assassins. sure, mysticism is a bit lacking, but there aren't nearly as many worthless lines and skills as the Paragon. Earth Prayers is an amazing line for defense and quirky things, Wind Prayers a bit less so, but rocking for energy managment (the rest of the line falls short though)

There aren't many choices for Paragons, even if you completely ignore imbagon-type builds. Theres offensive support, and defensive support, which tend to lean towards the Command line (not many elites synergize with it, as all the Command elites are pretty bad in functionality), and Song of Purification (Motivation itself, and a lot of other elite skills in the line, suck.)

Fix that, you fix paragons

Benderama · Jun 15, 2010, 06:08 PM // 18:08

/signed on +33% paragon buff speed plox. (i can has healingz?)
anywho didn't they say something like " the problem with para's is that stuff like song of resto only heals chars that use certain skills,so will only benefit a minority of the group". nothing happened to this

, i play a paragon but i just find it really kinda boring, the elite skills don't seems to attract me personally either. and whats all teh obsession with burininating? i didn't really see mesmer needing a gigantic buff i still love playing mine ^^, and they're fun to play. Some classes don't need to be buffed much (i enjoyed playing a rit even before the update made SS viable).
Dervs could use something moar interesting too but not in dire need of anythang.

Martin Alvito · Jun 15, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

(AKA the same type of skill change/creap that made Dervishes go from enchantment juggling to.. whatever the heck they do now.).

Spread Deep Wound in PvP with Wounding Strike. Bout it.

Even if you give Paragons ranged AoE, will they be playable? Barrage doesn't see a lot of play right now. Paragons would need extremely potent skills in order to compete for a damage slot.

Seems to me that the balance problem is the high armor of monsters in Hard Mode and all of the armor-ignoring damage skills that certain caster classes enjoy right now. Rangers and Elementalists aren't in much better shape than Paragons and Dervishes right now, and it's for the same basic reason.

All the Mesmer update really did for PvE at the end of the day was cause Mesmers to supplant Elementalists as damage dealers. The basic issue appears to be that there are a limited number of roles for PvE players, and too many classes to balance into those roles.

Ka Tet · Jun 15, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Spread Deep Wound in PvP with Wounding Strike. Bout it.

Spammable deep wound is definitely their main advantage, but a front-line Derv calling spikes enables a balanced team to spike like a true spike team. A derv on the frontline doesn't have the need to take time to build up adren like warrs or wait for r/c's like sins- plus having one attack blocked doesn't kill the spike. All the derv needs is a few RoFs and Patient Spirits and it has the energy to keep roll spiking.

Ugh · Jun 15, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

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Originally Posted by shoyon456

You mean this build? Do you realize that that build utilizes three attribute points in Mysticism? There's no point to a primary Dervish running that build since Mysticism has no use in it. And the point still remains that Warrior could still do that exact same build better with a higher Tactics att and higher AL than Dervs..

A warrior probably wouldn't have the energy regen to run a scythe build without WE, unless he/she could consistently hit 3 guys with a zealous scythe. But yea, I see your point, especially about Mysticism sucking and that classes shouldn't have to rely on others' elites. Also, saying the update put dervs 'on par' with the other scythe builds was a bit too generous of me.

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Sins have the same AL as Dervs.

The sin crit scythe build uses Critical Agility (or whatever that skill's called), which gives them +25 armor at full sunspear rank.

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Originally Posted by jimbo32

But aren't Paras the only class in the game without some sort of AoE capability? And I'm not talking about Splinter Weapon - I mean skills innate to the class. The caster professions are obviously covered. As for the physical ones: Warriors have PBAoE with all their weapons (sword is somewhat limited I guess with just HB, but there's also Whirlwind Attack). Dervishes do PBAoE with every swipe of their scythe. Rangers have Barrage and Volley. Assassins have Death Blossom, Golden Phoenix Strike, and a few others. Paras really only have Holy Spear, and it's AoE is highly conditional.

The best one to use as a comparison is the Assassin. They have (imo) the highest single-target spike ability out of all the physical classes. I would go so far as to say that it's the main role of the Sin in the grand scheme of GW. Yet they also have some AoE.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of all classes having aoe. Back in the good ol' days, the only classes with legitimate aoe were eles and, to a lesser extent, necros; all the other classes had very minor aoe or none at all. But, as years have passed, aoe has become more available and necessary for more classes, since it's easier to break everything equally than fix PvE.

Point: Although I wouldn't like it, I wouldn't be suprised to see paragons given more aoe, since PvE is broken and Anet is doing it for many other classes.

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I find the whole thing kinda odd really - in my opinion, the two most flexible professions in GW are the Canthan ones. And the two most narrow are the Elonians.

Possible racism? I shall investigate this further and bring up a case against Anet.

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Personally, I thought the Para buff was more urgent than Mesmer. And yes, I've played both (my Legendary Survivor is a Mes).

Agreed. Kinda...

Personally, I feel rangers are the most underpowered PvE profession. But, that's apparantly quite biased; everyone seems to think they're fine for some reason.

Current 'Excellent Build Count':

Monks, Warriors, Necros, Assassins, Ritualists, Mesmers: shittons
Eles, Paragons: 1
Dervs: 1/2?
Rangers: 0

Shayne Hawke · Jun 15, 2010, 08:10 PM // 20:10

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Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

1) lack of AoE

If you can explain to me how it makes sense for a person clad in heavy armor that is meant to chuck spears to do significant damage in a large area, I might go ahead and agree with you on this. Right now, with my idea of what the paragon is, it doesn't fit to give it AoE skills, regardless of whether it would be in the best interests for them to have them or not. That view will probably only change with a class rework.

Age · Jun 15, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I doubt it as there hasn't been any buff for Monks in over 2 years and the Paragons are lumped in with them as being a support class.Anet has no love for the Monk anymore.

Martin Alvito · Jun 15, 2010, 08:47 PM // 20:47

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Originally Posted by Age

I doubt it as there hasn't been any buff for Monks in over 2 years and the Paragons are lumped in with them as being a support class.Anet has no love for the Monk anymore.

Other than the fact that the current version of WoH is hacks, I might agree with you.

The problem with balancing Monk is that any changes to the class affect every single meta in the game.

Del · Jun 15, 2010, 09:02 PM // 21:02

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Originally Posted by Age

I doubt it as there hasn't been any buff for Monks in over 2 years and the Paragons are lumped in with them as being a support class.Anet has no love for the Monk anymore.

Implying that monks aren't OP.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 15, 2010, 09:46 PM // 21:46

lots of misconceptions and assumptions in here about what a paragon is "meant" to do. i will try to clear up a few points, you may agree or disagree as you choose.

"paragons are not meant to do damage": this is obviously not true, any profession that has a weapon mastery attribute is meant to do physical damage. axe mastery, dagger mastery, spear mastery, scythe mastery, marksmanship. furthermore, paragon is the only other profession that uses adrenaline to power its skills. it's pretty clear that paragons were meant to attack, and attack often... in fact their energy management requires it.

"paragons are a support class": this is obviously not true either, as the paragon does not have the energy to perform a support role without chucking spears to gain adrenaline to power shouts to regain energy... all of which takes time. a true support class simply casts a spell and he is done, leaving him far more time to fulfill his support role. paragon is usually in a middle ground between full attack and full support.

"paragons don't need AoE": I have nothing to say to this besides pointing out that every other profession has AoE damage skills, even the healers such as monks and ritualists. Is there a reason why paragon should be denied something that every other profession has access to?

Lanier suggested that throwing multiple spears "doesn't make sense", but this is a fantasy game and throwing multiple spears is no more illogical than firing multiple arrows or causing an explosion with death blossom. Besides that, throwing multiple spears (ie. Barrage/Volley style) is only one way of dishing AoE. Holy Spear is a good example of the type of skill that could prove useful, unfortunately it is too conditional. Perhaps if it affected all undead (not just minions) and all demons then it would be more generally useful.

some other ideas:

change Mighty Throw to do +x...y damage and knock target down if it is moving or weakened. similar skills: slippery ground, gale, stoning, bull's strike. -OR- Mighty Throw does +x...y damage to target and x...y damage to all adjacent. similar skills: death blossom, splinter shot. change cost/recharge/etc. as appropriate.

change Burning Refrain to inflict Burning on target and all adjacent for 1..3 seconds (unconditional). similar skills: mark of rodgort. ties in with the paragon's burning theme and synergizes with glowing signet, they're on fire, etc.

change Unblockable Throw to attack twice and be unblockable. similar skills: sun & moon slash, twin moon sweep. at present this skill is completely pwned by Wild Throw, it needs to be changed.

change Stunning Strike to daze target for x...y seconds and also interrupt all adjacent. similar skills: cry of frustration, tease.

there are plenty of other skills we could talk about but the idea is to show different ways to deliver AoE effects. It doesn't have to mimic Barrage or Volley.

Lishy · Jun 15, 2010, 10:39 PM // 22:39

I don't believe a paragon's role is to be dealing AoE damage, nor' dealing warrior damage. When we speak of damage buffs, they really only need a very minor damage buff. It's everything else about them that must be looked into, such as the convenience of skills, IAS, and motivation, to name a few.

To be straight and simple, paragons ARE a support profession because their best spear chucking builds involve spreading the game's most powerful conditions like deep wound, daze, and weakness. A good paragon won't focus their damage on a single target, but quickly charge up their adrenaline and spread conditions on enemies in order to aid allies in defeating enemies, while buffing those same allies with the powerful damage reduction shout "There's Nothing to Fear!"

When paragons are ever buffed, I expect more interaction with burning as a condition. If Paragons were to deal any sort of AoE damage, it would be minor, but a spammable AoE burn instead to fuel whatever interactions with burning they may have. Holy Spear would NOT be the perfect candidate for a change like this because it is currently very useful in its current niche as a wiper for summoned creatures. What I would, however, like to see expanded upon is "Brace Yourself!"

Anyways, bottom line is that Paragons are not nukers since it is a support profession, and were designed to be so. What it needs is more of its "offensive" support like condition spread.

Gondrakif · Jun 15, 2010, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

"paragons are not meant to do damage": this is obviously not true, any profession that has a weapon mastery attribute is meant to do physical damage. axe mastery, dagger mastery, spear mastery, scythe mastery, marksmanship. furthermore, paragon is the only other profession that uses adrenaline to power its skills. it's pretty clear that paragons were meant to attack, and attack often...

I disagree that because there is a spear mastery attribute paragons were meant to be damage dealers. Sure you can play a spear mastery build with only purpose to deal damage but the thing is you would be out-damaged by nearly every profession and better off using shouts/chants to support your group.
Besides even if Anet decided to buff spear damage to something comparable to other professions' dps you would end up in a dervish-scythe like situation: Warriors and assassins would be better with it than the paragon because Leadership doesn't provide anything even close to what Strength and Critical Strikes do.

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in fact their energy management requires it.

The best energy management option for the paragon is Leadership which gives energy whenever you activate a shout or chant which is pretty much irrelevant to spears and their damage.

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"paragons are a support class": this is obviously not true either, as the paragon does not have the energy to perform a support role without chucking spears to gain adrenaline to power shouts to regain energy... all of which takes time.

More than half the shouts/chants require energy rather than adrenaline. Energy comes from leadership whenever you use a shout/chant and with this you can fuel the next shout/chant and so on. So it's not as "hard" as you make it seem.

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a true support class simply casts a spell and he is done, leaving him far more time to fulfill his support role.

Please name a true supporter class in GW.
Also the fact that most shouts/chants are party-wide makes up for the time lost building up adrenaline. Furthermore shouts have no activation time so you don't have to stop gaining adrenaline while supporting your group.

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"paragons don't need AoE": I have nothing to say to this besides pointing out that every other profession has AoE damage skills, even the healers such as monks and ritualists. Is there a reason why paragon should be denied something that every other profession has access to?

And casters don't have access to attack skills. Also paragon is the only profession with access to chants... Plus the other non-caster professions have somewhat limited access to AoE (assassin,ranger being the most obvious examples), so what's your point here?

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Lanier suggested that throwing multiple spears "doesn't make sense", but this is a fantasy game and throwing multiple spears is no more illogical than firing multiple arrows or causing an explosion with death blossom. Besides that, throwing multiple spears (ie. Barrage/Volley style) is only one way of dishing AoE.

Well i can't explain why but a spear Barrage strikes me as wrong

Myself i always thought of paragons as the supporting profession mainly because 3/4 attributes are pure support but i guess everyone has his/her own opinion

Del · Jun 15, 2010, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

lots of different opinions in here about what a paragon is "meant" to do. i will add my own view of what a paragon is meant to do.

Fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

"paragons are not meant to do damage": this is obviously not true, any profession that has a weapon mastery attribute is meant to do physical damage. axe mastery, dagger mastery, spear mastery, scythe mastery, marksmanship. furthermore, paragon is the only other profession that uses adrenaline to power its skills. it's pretty clear that paragons were meant to attack, and attack often... in fact their energy management requires it.

Rangers have bow mastery, does that make their purpose DPS machines? Just like rangers, para are meant to support the party, although the way rangers and paras support is completely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

"paragons are a support class": this is obviously not true either, as the paragon does not have the energy to perform a support role without chucking spears to gain adrenaline to power shouts to regain energy... all of which takes time. a true support class simply casts a spell and he is done, leaving him far more time to fulfill his support role. paragon is usually in a middle ground between full attack and full support.

Paragons are in fact a support class, as evident that a vast majority of their skills are party buffs. the spear is merely necessary to to spam adrenal shouts, but para damage isn't ever going to be impressive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

"paragons don't need AoE": I have nothing to say to this besides pointing out that every other profession has AoE damage skills, even the healers such as monks and ritualists. Is there a reason why paragon should be denied something that every other profession has access to?

Provide one logical reason paras need aoe, aside from just because everyone else has aoe.

Martin Alvito · Jun 15, 2010, 11:34 PM // 23:34

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Originally Posted by Del

Paragons are in fact a support class, as evident that a vast majority of their skills are party buffs. the spear is merely necessary to to spam adrenal shouts, but para damage isn't ever going to be impressive.

Which is the basic problem. Support classes are unnecessary in PvE (if you play the way you should), and Paragons usually exist in one of two states in PvP:

1) Dominant; redundant paragons own all
2) Suckage

with very little room to balance in between the two conditions. Long story short: support classes with decent ranged attacks are not a good idea in this game. Ranger works because it provides disruption and DOT without providing meaningful support.

Del · Jun 15, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Which is the basic problem. Support classes are unnecessary in PvE (if you play the way you should), and Paragons usually exist in one of two states in PvP:

1) Dominant; redundant paragons own all
2) Suckage

with very little room to balance in between the two conditions. Long story short: support classes with decent ranged attacks are not a good idea in this game. Ranger works because it provides disruption and DOT without providing meaningful support.

True enough, but aside from rits, non-core profs are either meh or OP, which is why GW would be better without them.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 16, 2010, 12:14 AM // 00:14

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Originally Posted by Lishy

I
Anyways, bottom line is that Paragons are not nukers since it is a support profession, and were designed to be so. What it needs is more of its "offensive" support like condition spread.

Every support profession can nuke except paragons.

In fact the support professions are arguably the best nukers.

Ka Tet · Jun 16, 2010, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Anthem of Explosion. Chant. For 10 seconds, the next attack skill used by each party member within earshot explodes on impact dealing XX damage to target and adjacent foes. 10 nrg. 20s r/c. 2s activation time.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 16, 2010, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Anthem of Explosion. Chant. For 10 seconds, the next attack skill used by each party member within earshot explodes on impact dealing XX damage to target and adjacent foes. 10 nrg. 20s r/c. 2s activation time.

Adding skills to the game at this point is ridiculous just for a skill balance.

Lishy · Jun 16, 2010, 04:27 AM // 04:27

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Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Every support profession can nuke except paragons.

In fact the support professions are arguably the best nukers.

Rangers can also nuke. Does that mean they are good at it?

I don't think a profession is defined by how well they can nuke, and if one thinks inefficient adjacent range AoEs are the only important factor for PvE, they should re-examine what goes on in the actual battlefield.

jazilla · Jun 16, 2010, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Paragons were designed to be support in every regard. Support the monk as a hybrid Prot/Healer, Energy Support(this is the area I hope sees some love) and moderate damage. I really think that the PvP in GW just really wasn't designed to handle how powerful they were when they first arrived on the scene. They will never have much variety in the 4v4 formats because any damage they could do that would shine in RA/Codex would completely be too powerful for 8v8 formats. They are so unique and awesome, but they are a conundrum in the mechanics of the game imo. I hope something drastic is done to the motivation line. I had posted a thread in which I said that a Spear should be able to be used a ranged weapon or melee weapon for any skill listed as ranged/melee that isn't defined my what weapon you have to use to give them some versatility with the other classes. Sadly I don't think that will happen. With their limited skill set, I think that would go really far in helping their damage and the amount of builds you could come up with to make them better.